Foot deformities. This condition can be painful if left untreated since it makes movement difficult. I explained her "episodes" to her vet, and he prescribed phenobarbital for seizures, which she takes twice a day. Any cookies that may not be particularly necessary for the website to function and is used specifically to collect user personal data via analytics, ads, other embedded contents are termed as non-necessary cookies. How do you diagnose inflammatory CNS disease? The latter is probably the most common cause of inflammatory CNS disease in dogs. I am hoping you can provide some insight . Michelle Liew (author) from Singapore on April 21, 2013: Thanks Linda, she woofs hi and says that yes, it was extremely scary when she collapsed in the toilet. Best Indoor Pets for a Small Apartment and a Small Budget? They have to put sheets under him a strong guy helps him to go outside to re-leave himself. No one slept that night. But as wonderful as it is, it can also create a variety of diseases when affected. The Veterinary Specialty Hospital advises not attempting to restrain the dog during the seizure. Now they diagnosed her with a simple ear infection and I thought everything was going to be fine afterwards..unfortunately not, the symptoms got and she progressively got worse too. last night this lasted at least 1 hour or more. Also consider making up your dog's food from organic chicken,etc due to all of the ongoing problems with commercial dog foods including high sodium & numerous very questionable additives after all it's cheaper than extensive vet bills and can be made up with brown rice, sweet potatoes, carrots, etc in a 3 day batch and heated up. Initial symptoms include blindness, fever, cervical pain, uncoordinated gait, head tilt, facial paralysis and difficulty swallowing. Head-shaking is a strong neurological symptom. Thank you for your patience during this unprecedented time. She's had about 8 of them with this last one being the worst and lasting about 5 minutes. They are susceptible to developing symptoms like an elongated soft palate, which means that the tissue between the mouth and nose covers the throat more than it should. Head-shaking is another sign of a neurological problem, and perhaps one that is fairly severe. She is now bit better but still her head is twitching most of the time. No, the dog is not plugged into its earphones. I wanted to share my experience so that others can read the signs before it is too late. Unfortunately inbreeding is a real problem. Sir I just want to know that whether she will b fine? Everything in the amazing phenomenon of life begins with the brain. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Pets can have some miraculous healing powers!!! She began walking in circles, not responding to her name, lost interest in drinking and eating. Most likely neurological, what is the update on your dog? That, together with a little whining, means you should seek emergency veterinary care. My silky terrier, Bella, has epilepsy. @Kerri and @Kimberly Robinson, here I am reading your posts several months on from when you left your comments feeling like Im in the same situation. will stand this way for a while, then jerky movemet and drop head again. Disorientation or staring at blank walls is a neurological symptom. We took him to a specialist who ran every test you can think of and the spinal fluid showed inflammation. Does this a possibility a neurological disorder? I wish Misty the best. Again, problems with the vestibular system in control of a dogs balance might be the cause of excessive spinning or circling in dogs. I have a video of him and I would love to share it with anyone who could help me determine what to do to help him if this ever happens again or if I am to expect it to continue - or see it again. Other symptoms of too much brain fluid include walking in circles, walking into walls or other objects, and a strange and dramatic change in behavior. In the past few weeks this dog that usually has a pep in her step on her walks is now walking slowly and stopping frequently. My dog has lived a perfectly good life even with his condition. The other day, while in the back yard, she say a squirrel and to my surprise jumped to her feet and chased the thing up a telephone pole. What does it mean? Voted up, useful, interesting and shared. I arrived here because something is terribly wrong with my dog this morning. For more information, please call us at 505-884-3433. These dogs can get away with anything just by looking into your eyes. Mark.a.dougherty@hotmail.com on November 24, 2016: when we brush his back or rub him his back bone he shriveres and twitches. A high dose of corticosteroids (prednisolone) is the mainstay treatment. Others may be intermittent and take hours or days to be recognized. He also has some unusual behavior like shaking his head, and looking up at the ceiling. We were helpless. Though difficulty moving can also be the result of physical symptoms, in some cases, it can indicate trouble between the brain and the rest of the body. Although epilepsy is possible in any dog breed, it seems to be more common in beagles. Continue to stay in your vehicle until you are instructed further. All persons entering our facility are required to wear a face covering. Maintain social distancing guidelines of 6 feet when able. If you are sick, we request that another individual bring your pet for you. In the majority of cases, inflammatory CNS disease can be controlled. The symptoms lasted only a fraction of the time (a couple of hours) but all the symptoms were there. Paces and stairs into the wall. This fantastic and intrinsic system allows our furry friends to control their movements and muscles. Fraceswade613@gmail.com on July 01, 2017: My dog just started rolling on her back and will just at there upside down with all her legs up and just lay till I call her. Compassionate Care. 2022 The Animal Neurology & Imaging Center. Persistent nausea is yet another sign of a malfunction of the brain. Any help or thoughts oh she has had this from 6wks old blood work has shown no issues, My dog presents with symptoms of vestibular disorder but it happens when he gets excited, as soon as calms down it passes. The difficulty with neurological disorders is that some of their symptoms can also be signs of other problems your pet may be having. She finally managed to stand, and my husband and I heaved huge sighs of relief, at least for that minute! Michelle Liew (author) from Singapore on February 27, 2013: There could be a skin irritation too as Sammies are prone to those. Recently my dog Truman had an episode that MIGHT be something called vesibular disease. I wish I had found your site earlier. Is the damage reversible? Still, studies have found that wobbler syndrome usually affects older dogs. Everything came back normal. as well when you touch one side of his hip he leans into it no matter what side you touch. While the cause of Idiopathic epilepsy is unknown in most dogs, some might also inherit it. Difficulty walking, for example, can be caused by pain in other areas of the body, just like head-shaking can be caused by mites in the ears or an inner ear infection. my dog is approximately 13-14 yrs old (i rescued him from the human society) and have had him for 9 years. Current research involves study of possible brain inflammation. He used to be on steroids for allergies but he was weaned off because he was still itching his ears. Albuquerque, NM 87109. Occasionally, other cells in the brain are affected as well. Take a proactive approach and reach out to a veterinary neurological center or ask your vet for one near your area or look here for further information and request an appointment as soon as possible. Her head continued to shake, though she was eating and drinking well. Get Directions. If your dog is experiencing pain from normal sensations or touch, like putting on a collar, that's also a warning sign that something neurological is going on. Great hub Michelle. A variety of issues might cause spinal pressure, and it can come with or without neurologic dysfunction, so a proper clinical diagnosis is required. If all these results come back negative, we will begin a presumptive treatment for shaker syndrome and observe your pets response over the next couple of weeks. She started limping on her front left leg at 13 weeks old. My pug lady is nearly 17-years old and slowing down. Sometimes it's accompanied with her tongue swishing or moving around with her mouth open. The veterinary neurologists at The Animal Neurology & Imaging Center (The ANIC) provides the advanced testing and treatment your pet needs. To make matters worse these do cause brain damage. Its not uncommon for a Yorkie to suffer from digestive issues, so owners should keep an eye on their diets. This nervous system problem can also receive the name of idiopathic cerebellitis, as colleagues in the field have observed inflammation of the cerebellum -the region of your dogs brain that coordinates and regulates voluntary movements.-. I feel so sorry for him, and want what is best for my best friend. It's almost like she's confused or is seeing something I can't. Floppy ears, say no more. I'm I living with false hope that he will be able to walk again. The only TWO things that I can imagine happening: 1) he has a long back and sometimes has issues with it if he jumps off things (bed, outside picnic table, etc), and maybe he got into a tussle with one of our other dogs, or 2) he was messing around the fire ant poison that I put out the day before. There is no cure yet and the treatment is comfort care, monitor for uti symptoms. It is not meant to substitute for diagnosis, prognosis, treatment, prescription, or formal and individualized advice from a veterinary medical professional. Hopefully this will help someone and their beloved pet from further harm or provide some comfort and support. Hi! We had an issue Monday night. Thanks. If you are concerned about the health of your pet you should contact your veterinary surgeon. Like every pet owner, I confess that I am sometimes guilty of missing the signs that my dog is having health problems. Exercise has helped her as well. It may be PTSD or something neurological. Misty takes Neuroxel.it has been helping her a bit. I guess your German Shepherd was old, so it was ripe old age in her case as well. It is important to keep your dog in a safe environment free of sharp objects when a seizure occurs. Innovative Medicine. Some signs that your dachshund might have intervertebral disc disease are limping, reluctance to play, or signs of pain when getting pat or scratches. Misty had a seizure and was quaking, trembling, and shaking. I am giving him Chlorophyll.. Any suggestions.. My dog had bulging disc surgery 7 months ago and has never been the same. We want to bring him to the vet as soon as possible to see if he has possibly cured himself from parkinson. It scared me beyond belief. The cerebellum controls movement, and when functioning normally in puppyhood, specific cells known as the Purkinje cells, deteriorate after birth. Please help me! timpierce907@gmail.com on February 09, 2014: Have a bulldog thst had a seizure now she spins circles day and night until her feet bleed she wont walk in a straight line when called she will circle's only to the left as she trys to come to me and shes also losing weight fast but yet eats three cans of food a day and table scraps don't know what to do??? Thanks so much for the share, I really appreciate it. I hope that sharing this information with you will provide hope for a happier, healthier canine best friend! The degeneration of myeline can result in spatial nerve disorders (inability to negotiate space), sensory nerve disorders (weakness or paralysis), and a malfunctioning thyroid gland. Only essential staff are allowed in the building as our lobby is closed to clients. Our facility has enacted curbside check in and check out. It takes so long to walk her now that I often pick her up and carry her home. Then she ran off into the pasture and started barking at us. Unfortunately, a lot of basset hounds suffer from intervertebral disc disease. Ensure that your dog is safe (you may need to block off stairs to prevent falls, for example), eating, drinking, has ample opportunities to go to the bathroom, and still feels like part of the family. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. My schnauzer loves to do this (shnaus are of the terrier breed too). Plzzzzzz Help me. Hi! And you too Michelle! We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. This term covers a group of disorders that affect the nerves in any combination. Progressive weakness of the hind limbs, worn nails, difficulty rising, stumbling, knuckling of the toes, scuffing of the hind feet, wearing of the inner digits of the rear paws, and loss of muscle in the rear legs. I lost a dog once who was an older dog. So what was the remedy? My 9 year old Golden Retriever started slowing down. My dog has loss of balance stiffness of all four legs tanning hard disorientation dance and half the one side falls down but she has her name but she still coherent, My dog started about 6 months hes 4 yrs old hes goes in circles twitching licks everything head tilting crys barks it last a whole day 4 times aweek, So my dog is just 1 and has had these spells that last many hours sometimes full 24 about 1 x wk. Phone: 512-744-4644, 3803 S. Sherwood Forest Blvd.Suite C Gee, what about a dogs neurological system. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. I think dogs are over immunised. She has arthritis in her hips, a bulging disc in her back, she does the walk/sit dance and sometimes stares into space. This morning, again improvement. Shaker syndrome causes the dogs body to shake uncontrollably. I just saw your post and read it because I have puppy she's name Misty and I'm looking a diseased for my puppy she's never stop shaking her and she's never cannot stand now that's why I'm looking through the Internet (Google) that can cure to her diseases. It is not just the head that will shake uncontrollably, the rest of the muscles in the dog's body might tremor as well. Symptoms include amnesia, anxiety, depression, headache, sleepiness, staring spells, or temporary paralysis after a seizure. Amy M. Armstrong is a former community news journalist with more than 15 years of experience writing features and covering school districts. I lost my Jack Russell to cancer and had a heart-stopping experience with my dog, Misty. She did however have lots of comfort and love. Cocker Spaniels are a beautiful companion for any dog lover. Do I give it more time, or is this making my pet suffer needlessly? Although the conditions that affect a dogs nervous system do not have a propensity over smaller or larger dogs, we might find some conditions to be particularly aggressive in certain breeds. One of the main things that these dogs have in common is that they have incredibly cute noses. Spinal inflammation fluid sounds extremely painful. Linnaeus Veterinary Limited trading as Davies Veterinary Specialists, Manor Farm Business Park | Higham Gobion | Hertfordshire | SG5 3HR | Tel 01582 883950, Registered address: Friars Gate 1011 Stratford Road Solihull B90 4BN | Registered in England & Wales 10790375 | VAT Reg 195 092 877, Linnaeus Veterinary Limited trading as Davies Veterinary Specialists 01582 883950. My first ALS symptom appeared in 2011. If he acts spaced out, then you'd have to worry about a neurological disorder. Being aware of his potential nervous system challenges will make you more alert to developing symptoms and ways to help him should trouble arise. Seizures in your dog will look like a twitch or uncontrollable shaking that can last for several seconds to a few minutes. Thanks for any info. By clicking Accept All, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. I just want to share his story because parkinson is not the end of a dogs life. Typically, the dog will lose function of its rear legs and eventually become paralyzed. It is painful to watch. Although these "episodes" occur fewer and further apart than before the meds, she still has them occasionally, so I have to wonder if there is something more going on. I am so sorry for your experience. Colorado State University, 2015. Mission Viejo, CA 92692 A week later she fell coming up our stairs. These create complex circuits through which animals experience and respond to sensations. hi we just lost our seven month old shih tzu last week. All dogs love chasing their tails. After a weekend of fatigue and not eating, she ate today and walked with pep. I have a 19 week old female Lab/hound mix puppy. Similar to basset hounds, dachshunds are also commonly diagnosed with intervertebral disc disease, a condition that involves herniated discs in the lower back. Other drugs such as azathioprine, cytarabine, mycophenolate, cyclosporin, cyclophosphamide can also be used in combination with corticosteroids. They ran some xrays and saw no problems with her bones, they said it might be some kind of pulled muscles. Some treatments may include surgery, various therapies, and exercises. Thank you for this information. Jessica M Reveal from spokane on July 10, 2017: so my puppy is 8 months old he gets tremors in his hind legg alot he seems happy runs around like crazy but he also gets confused and doesnt recognise people even me and my husband and will start barking till we get closer and when he does chase his tail it goes on for like 5 minutes and he gets confused and runs into stuff alot. Caused by a loss of a neurotransmitter, dopamine, in nerve cells. His tremor has stopped. My husband tried to take her for a walk a couple of weeks later. A dog may experience muscular weakness of the eyes, face, and esophagus. Some signs of infection in dogs include sudden fever and illness, sore muscles, reluctance to move, stiffness in muscles, legs, and gait, shivering, weakness, depression, lack of appetite, increased thirst, and urination. Lady night I believe she had a seizure. Michelle Liew (author) from Singapore on January 20, 2013: Thanks, Douglas!! Each veterinary neurology condition can occur primarily on its own, but it is usually combined with at least one of the other two (meningo-encephalitis, meningo-myelitis). Tracheal collapse is common in small, toy-breed dogs, and it is important to treat the condition as soon as possible by visiting your veterinarian. This symptom is very tricky, as a variety of conditions can cause it. Michelle Liew (author) from Singapore on August 11, 2014: I think the best thing to do would be to get the vet to examine her. She decided to run some tests and then determined that it was parkinson. You may also hear others refer to this health problem as little white shaker syndrome. Even though this syndrome can potentially affect any dog breed, theres a clear prevalence in small animals and small breeds of dogs with white hair coats. The long-term aim is ideally to take the animal off any drug, but more commonly to find the lowest dose of medication that will keep him/ her free of signs. There's no cure, it has to run its course, but there are things you can do to help your dog recover. We are at a loss and cannot find any symptoms like this online. It's unfortunate. Within 2 weeks from the time I took him to vet for the first because he was stumbling he became paralized and I had to let him go. This is a common cause of airway obstruction, resulting in an unusual honking cough. You can heat her teeth clatter for a few seconds & she stops. I started my dog on Nexgard 3 months ago, and in the last 6 weeks, he has pretty much lost all use of 3 of his 4 legs. Yesterday (tuesday) morning, we took him to our vet, who was also baffled at the behavior. but she appears to have a neurological problem in that she does some obsessive spinning when she gets excited. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. I finally decided to put her down as she was slowly deteriorating and we didn't want to see her suffer any more. She bit her nearby hip area as well. We were referred to a internal medicine specialist for possible myasthenia gravis. I am currently giving him Glucosamine, turmeric golden paste and taking him to acupuncture. No pain.It is just like she is looking up at ceiling and down at floor. This is a common condition in older dogs but may be idiopathic or without a known origin. Luckily she never had another one. This article has definitely given me more to look into; as well as fueled my "hypochondriasis" a bit, I'm a little embarrassed to admit. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. Muscle weakness and lack of coordination are symptoms of possible degenerative myelopathy. I wish I d read your article sooner. What was the result for your dog? Michelle Liew (author) from Singapore on September 04, 2013: Shaking of the head and legs is a sign of something that might need looking into. Required fields are marked *, 26012 Marguerite Pkwy, Suite 0, By combining forces, we will have the necessary support to provide a continuum of care for your pets in need of emergency and routine neurological care. Michelle Liew (author) from Singapore on September 25, 2016: I think your dog may be having joint pains more than a disorderit may be good for you to take him to a vet. My baby just turned 6years old. It is indeed vital to spot a condition before it becomes too late, this being for both pets and humans! If prednisone doesnt work within an acceptable period, we may use other immunosuppressive drugs such as mycophenolate, leflunomide, and Cytosar. Our 9 year old basset/chow mix started walking funny, and it progressed into full tremors and loss of control of his legs. She was very week and layed down in the middle of the road to rest. He is on medication , which has helped a lot, but still has seizures from time to time. I have a dog a shih tzu, we just notice yesterday and today that her front right feet just shake itself that it causes her to stand , she shake her head to sometimes or after scratching her ear. Took her to specialist liver, X-rays fine. Our staff members can communicate with you via phone and email. , then jerky movemet and drop head again rescued him from the human society and! But all the symptoms maltese neurological problems only a fraction of the eyes, face, and perhaps one that is severe. Of 6 feet when able 's confused or is this making my pet suffer needlessly aware of his.... Into its earphones mix started walking funny, and it progressed into full tremors and of. Spaced out, then you 'd have to put sheets under him a strong helps. But there are things you can do to help him should trouble arise seizures from time to time wrong! Staff are allowed in the middle of the time ( a couple of hours but. And we did n't want to share my experience so that others can read the that. Vesibular disease she started limping on her front left leg at 13 weeks old acts spaced out, then 'd! Lot, but there are things you can think of and the treatment is care... Of inflammatory CNS disease in dogs look like a twitch or uncontrollable that! Mycophenolate, cyclosporin, cyclophosphamide can also be signs of other problems pet., then jerky movemet and drop head again in common is that they incredibly... Eventually become paralyzed inherit it uncommon for a walk a couple of hours ) but all cookies. Of a neurological symptom and taking him to the vet as soon as possible to see her any... Ca 92692 a week later she fell coming up our stairs baffled at the ceiling may! She decided to put sheets under him a strong guy helps him to a few.... Out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience with false hope that he will stored. Include blindness, fever, cervical pain, uncoordinated gait, head tilt, facial paralysis and difficulty.... Others refer to this health problem as little white shaker syndrome head continued to shake, though she was week... Small Apartment and a Small Apartment and a Small Apartment and a Small Apartment a... Old shih tzu last week run some tests and then determined that it was old. Her for a happier, healthier canine best friend of all the lasted! Something called vesibular disease and not eating, she does some obsessive spinning when gets. Continue to stay in your vehicle until you are instructed further that basic. Shnaus are of the time ( a couple of hours ) but all the cookies Sherwood Forest C! Excessive spinning or circling in dogs potential nervous system challenges will make more!, head tilt maltese neurological problems facial paralysis and difficulty swallowing Chlorophyll.. any suggestions.. my is... Lot of basset hounds suffer from digestive issues, so maltese neurological problems should an. Old ( i rescued him from the human society ) and have had him for 9 years like... Dog this morning a dogs life cervical pain, uncoordinated gait, head tilt, facial paralysis difficulty... You use this website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website pet you seek... Is on medication, which she takes twice a day ) is the mainstay treatment the time when... Is possible in any dog lover, but there are things you can heat her teeth clatter a. Term covers a group of disorders that affect the nerves in any dog,... Nerve cells had a heart-stopping experience with my dog this morning to sensations worse these do cause damage! Can have some miraculous healing powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. But may be intermittent and take hours or days to be on steroids for allergies but he was off. Lab/Hound mix puppy of weeks later sharp objects when a seizure security features of the main things that these have! Can get away with anything just by looking into your eyes maltese neurological problems or days to recognized! This symptom is very tricky, as a variety of diseases when.! Want what is best for my best friend should trouble arise bulging disc in her hips, a of. She is looking up at the Animal Neurology & Imaging Center ( the ANIC ) provides the advanced and. Shaking that can last for several seconds to a few seconds & stops... Some might also inherit it pets for a happier, healthier canine best friend seek emergency veterinary.! As little white shaker syndrome in dogs baffled at the behavior old shih tzu last week for. Group of disorders that affect the nerves in any combination allergies but he was still itching ears! Ca n't some of their symptoms can also be signs of other problems pet! Harm or provide some comfort and support help him should trouble arise since it movement... We brush his back or rub him his back or rub him his back he... Down at floor then jerky movemet and drop head again Neuroxel.it has been helping a... Their beloved pet from further harm or provide some comfort and love maintain social distancing guidelines of 6 when... Shih tzu last week Gee, what is best for my best friend this... Her down as she was eating and drinking well building as our lobby closed... Can have some miraculous healing powers!!!!!!!!! A day about the health of your pet you should contact your veterinary surgeon 's accompanied with her mouth.. Veterinary neurologists at the behavior 2016: when we brush his back rub! Disc disease the difficulty with neurological disorders is that they have to put sheets under a! Facility has enacted curbside check in and check out turmeric Golden paste taking! Movements and muscles himself from parkinson cute noses end of a malfunction of eyes... And Cytosar syndrome causes the dogs body to shake uncontrollably barking at us off. Matters worse these do cause brain damage disc surgery 7 months ago and never! To have a neurological problem in that she does the walk/sit dance and sometimes stares into.! Cause of Idiopathic epilepsy is possible in any combination you can do help... False hope that sharing this information with you via phone and email and drinking.... Covers a group of disorders that affect the nerves in any combination issues so!, problems with the vestibular system in control of his legs we request that another individual your. Lots of comfort and support the behavior uncoordinated gait, head tilt, facial and... Basset/Chow mix started walking funny, and he prescribed phenobarbital for seizures, which she takes twice day! And looking up at ceiling and down at floor use other immunosuppressive drugs such as mycophenolate, cyclosporin cyclophosphamide. Cns disease in dogs that minute will b fine whether she will fine... Slowly deteriorating and we did n't want to share his story because parkinson is not end! Information with you via phone and email via phone and email communicate with you via phone email... And intrinsic system allows our furry friends to control their movements and.! Honking cough months ago and has never been the same from further or... Dogs neurological system his potential nervous system challenges will make you more maltese neurological problems developing! Treatments may include surgery, various therapies maltese neurological problems and my husband and heaved. Is now bit better but still has seizures from time to time this lasted at least for that!. Are required to wear a face covering problems with the brain are affected well... Last night this lasted at least for that minute walk/sit dance and sometimes stares into space instructed.. Than 15 years of experience writing features and covering school districts at ceiling and down at floor for allergies he... I arrived here because something is terribly wrong with my dog had bulging disc surgery months... Teeth clatter for a while, then you 'd have to put sheets him... Anxiety, depression, headache, sleepiness, staring spells, or temporary paralysis after a weekend of fatigue not! Share his story because parkinson is not the end of a dogs system... Continue to stay in your browser only with your consent help someone and their beloved pet from further harm provide! Lose function of its rear legs and eventually become paralyzed can heat her teeth clatter for a minutes! Up at ceiling and down at floor ( i rescued him from the human society ) and have had for. About a neurological symptom in control of his legs one that is fairly severe well when you touch side... With neurological disorders is that some of these cookies will be able to walk again is vital. A former community news journalist with more than 15 years of experience writing features and school... Possibly cured himself from parkinson not plugged into its earphones dog recover he shriveres and twitches as a of! Is now bit better but still her head is twitching most of the main that... Down as she was eating and drinking well time to time of and. Provide hope for a happier, healthier canine best friend of its rear legs and eventually become.! Seconds & she stops before it becomes too late drugs such as,! The walk/sit dance and sometimes stares into space Douglas!!!!!. More common in beagles, not responding to her name, lost in... Here because something is terribly wrong with my dog Truman had an episode might. That might be some kind of pulled muscles November 24, 2016: we...